This transcript/article comes from Episode 249 of the PBSE podcast. Th article explores the complexities of communication in relationships affected by addiction, particularly focusing on the concept of shallow conversation. The discussion centers around a submission from a partner who struggles with her husband's emotional and communicative withdrawal, even after achieving sobriety. The partner feels isolated as her husband withholds significant information, like details from his recovery meetings and even a car accident. This behavior, often rooted in shame, fear, and trauma, is framed as a defense mechanism used by addicts to protect themselves from vulnerability. The podcast hosts delve into the importance of open, honest communication and the ways in which compartmentalization and emotional disconnection can erode trust and intimacy in relationships.
The article also highlights the partner's experience of betrayal trauma, noting how ongoing emotional withdrawal can feel like a continuation of the initial betrayal. It emphasizes the need for both partners to engage in the work of rebuilding trust, with the addict learning to express emotions and the partner setting clear boundaries. Practical strategies for improving communication, such as structured check-ins, therapy, and vulnerability, are discussed. Ultimately, the article concludes that while becoming true friends and partners again is challenging, it is possible through consistent effort, transparency, and mutual commitment to change.
LISTEN TO EPISODE—
Inside this Episode:
Introduction
Steven Mark with the PBSE podcast. We are coming at you today with episode 249. You can believe it—one short of 250. I know, we're just a few short weeks away from the fifth year anniversary of this thing.
It's absolutely wild. Absolutely wild. But we have a great submission that came in to us from a partner.
This opening sets the stage for what’s to come—a deep dive into relationships affected by addiction. Steven and Mark, with their expertise and years of experience, take the time to remind us that they’re at episode 249, a significant milestone. This level of dedication reflects their commitment to helping people who struggle with addiction and relationship issues. It’s clear from the start that this episode will tackle some tough, emotional questions that many people in relationships with addicts face daily.
The fact that they are nearing their fifth anniversary shows the long-standing value that their podcast has provided to its listeners. This is not just a show where addiction is discussed in theory; rather, it is grounded in real-world experiences, reflecting the difficult journey of recovery for both addicts and their partners. Having two experienced therapists, Steven and Mark, engage in meaningful discussions offers hope for those looking for practical advice.
Before diving into the submission, they remind the listeners that some issues in relationships may not seem critical at first glance. However, these "smaller" problems—such as shallow communication—can quickly become dealbreakers. This reminder sets the tone that what might appear as surface issues can actually reflect deeper, underlying relationship challenges.
Partner’s Submission: Addressing Shallow Conversation
And as you can see from the title, maybe this is something that you can relate to in your marriage. I know that Mark and I talked about this off air. And I have two clients actually right now that struggle with this very dynamic.
And it can be very frustrating for a partner this idea of you know as you can see by the title my added partner only engages in shallow conversation. Is there any hope he will ever treat me like a true friend and partner? So we're going to go ahead and read this. It's pretty quick.
We won't take us long and then we'll just jump right into it. Because even though this may not seem like to some like the top plate issue in a relationship especially at the beginning of recovery it can very quickly become a huge one as we navigate. So yeah we're excited to go into this.
The idea of "shallow conversation" may seem benign at first. Many might think, “At least he’s talking, right?” But when you really dig into it, shallow conversation is indicative of a much larger issue. It’s about more than just words—it’s about emotional connection. When one partner, especially in a relationship affected by addiction, engages only in surface-level dialogue, it can leave the other partner feeling isolated, disconnected, and, quite frankly, alone in the relationship.
Shallow conversation becomes a barrier to true intimacy. Without depth in communication, couples struggle to foster trust, understanding, and emotional closeness. In many cases, the addict partner may be using shallow conversation as a defense mechanism. They may avoid diving deeper because they fear being vulnerable or are afraid of what they might reveal about themselves, especially in the context of recovery. This can frustrate the partner who’s seeking a genuine connection.
For the partner, feeling ignored or not valued in conversation can lead to a sense of hopelessness. They might wonder whether the relationship will ever progress beyond this shallow stage, or if they’re destined to live in this emotional void. It’s essential to understand that this dynamic, while painful, is not uncommon. Many couples in recovery face the same issue, and it can be overcome with the right support and strategies.
Addressing shallow communication is about more than just talking; it’s about breaking down walls. For addicts, these walls often go up as a form of self-preservation. They have spent so long hiding, denying, or avoiding difficult conversations that the mere thought of opening up can feel overwhelming. This is where the journey toward vulnerability and emotional intimacy begins.
Submission Reading: The Struggles of a Closed-Off Partner
This is what she says: I have a question. My husband is very closed off to me. He doesn't tell me the important things about his life, family, or what really happens in his 12-step recovery meetings. It's like I have to know the answer and ask specific questions to get him to talk to me with any sort of detail. I know he used to do this to hide his pornography use in affairs.
But even simple things like going to a restaurant he kept hidden. Is this just a part of his personality? He's sober from porn now but still doesn't talk to me. It's like I only exist to him when he is at home.
Now this next part is quite extreme. He was recently in a car accident and didn't tell me until he came home from the hospital. Yeah there's definitely a lack of communication there.
Is there any hope he will treat me like a true friend and partner? Or has compartmentalization become so ingrained in him that this is just how it is? Good question. Really good question.
This partner’s submission speaks to a deep-seated pain—a pain that many who are in relationships with addicts will recognize. There’s an underlying frustration when a partner feels they are constantly left out, not just from conversations, but from the addict's life. The description of having to ask specific questions to get any meaningful response is emotionally draining. It’s as if the partner has to become an investigator just to connect.
Add to that the situation where he didn’t even share that he was in a car accident, and it becomes clear that this lack of communication is more than just casual forgetfulness. It’s a pattern of behavior that keeps the partner on the outside. It’s not only dismissive but can also be interpreted as a form of emotional neglect. When someone chooses to omit significant details about their life, it sends a message to the partner that they are not important enough to know.
In many cases, addicts compartmentalize their lives to manage the guilt and shame they feel about their addiction. They separate different parts of their lives—work, family, recovery, etc.—to avoid confronting the messiness of it all. But when this compartmentalization becomes ingrained, it can be incredibly damaging to relationships. The addict may believe they are protecting their partner by not burdening them with details, but in reality, they are driving a wedge between them.
For the partner, this behavior can feel like abandonment. When the addict withholds significant information—such as an accident—it strips the partner of the opportunity to support or care for them. It’s not just about the lack of conversation; it’s about the lack of emotional investment from the addict. And when this becomes the norm, the relationship begins to deteriorate.
The question this partner asks—whether compartmentalization has become too ingrained—is a critical one. Many addicts do get stuck in these patterns, but that doesn’t mean change is impossible. It does, however, require conscious effort on both sides to address these behaviors and work toward healthier communication patterns.
Here's a past PBSE podcast that delves deeply into what it takes for a porn/sex addict to attain real and lasting change—https://www.daretoconnectnow.com/post/evolve-from-treating-the-symptoms-of-addiction-to-a-real-lasting-change-of-heart-mind
Relating to "Say Something": A Musical Reflection
And as soon as we read this today your song came into my head. It's the song called Say Something. I think the band is A Great Big World, the band is called. And I pulled one of the little chorus verses from that song Say Something. You can picture this partner literally singing this song to her addict partner. And the verse says:
"
Say something, I'm giving up on you. I'm sorry that I couldn't get to you. Anywhere I would have followed you. Say something, I'm giving up on you."
The whole song has this desperate plea. Please talk. Please connect. Please be intimate. Please show yourself to me. Let us come together. Because this is so bad and has gone on so long that I'm really at the place of just giving up.
The choice of this song to reflect on the situation is powerful. Say Something captures the emotional exhaustion that partners of addicts often feel. The song is a plea for connection and, ultimately, for survival in the relationship. It speaks to the inner turmoil of wanting to hold on but feeling like you're constantly chasing after someone who refuses to meet you halfway.
For many partners of addicts, this sense of "giving up" can feel inevitable. After trying again and again to get through, to engage, to connect, they may find themselves emotionally drained. The song lyrics echo the sentiment of trying to reach someone who is unreachable. The partner might wonder if they’re at fault for not getting through, when in reality, the issue often lies in the addict’s own inability to open up.
This dynamic is exhausting because the partner is essentially carrying the emotional load of the relationship alone. While the addict continues to live in their compartmentalized world, the partner is left on the outside, yearning for just a small glimpse into what’s going on inside. Over time, this isolation can lead to resentment, frustration, and despair. They may feel like they’ve done everything in their power to save the relationship, but they can’t do it alone.
The idea of "giving up" isn’t necessarily about leaving the relationship. Sometimes, it’s about giving up hope that things will change—that the addict will suddenly start communicating, that the emotional connection will magically reappear. It’s a form of emotional self-preservation, a way of protecting oneself from further hurt. But it doesn’t have to be the end of the story. There is still hope for change, but it requires both partners to be willing to do the work.
Causes of Silence: A Look into the Addict’s Mind
Yeah and as we read that I think it's because of you Steve because you have a favorite song. And as soon as we read this today your song came into my head. It's the song called Say Something. I think the band is a great big world the band is called.
And I pulled one of the little chorus verses from that song Say Something. You can picture this partner literally singing this song to her addict partner. And the verse says Say something. I'm giving up on you.
The whole song has this desperate plea. Please talk. Please connect. Please be intimate. Please show yourself to me. Let us come together. Because this is so bad and has gone on so long that I'm really at the place of just giving up.
Understanding the root causes of why addicts often remain silent, even in recovery, is crucial for addressing this issue. For many addicts, the tendency to withhold information or engage in shallow conversation is not just a habit—it’s a defense mechanism. It’s a way of protecting themselves from the vulnerability that comes with being open and honest.
One of the primary reasons addicts remain silent is shame. Addiction, particularly to things like pornography or substances, often carries with it a deep sense of shame. Even after achieving sobriety, the addict may still feel unworthy of love and connection. They may believe that if they reveal their true selves, their partner will reject them. This fear of rejection can keep them locked in a cycle of silence, where they avoid meaningful conversation to protect themselves from further hurt.
Another reason addicts may struggle with communication is fear. Fear of judgment, fear of conflict, and fear of disappointing their partner can all contribute to the decision to withhold information. The addict may believe that by keeping things to themselves, they are preventing more pain. However, this often has the opposite effect, as it creates distance and mistrust in the relationship.
Influences on Closed Communication: Trauma and Environment
Well so let's just dive right into this. First let's just talk about the why right? The why and where does this come from? Why can addicts be so closed off to partners right? There are lots of reasons why this can be the case. For some it definitely can be a personality or style that was either learned in childhood possibly genetics maybe contributed to it.
Just a person who's more quiet more introverted more reserved. I mean we all know people like that. Sure absolutely right? Also can be learned from environment right? And I love that Mark put that in our notes today because it's very true right? Also trauma can play a huge role.
In order for intimacy or vulnerable expression to happen we have to feel like there's a safe environment to express it. Yes. And many of the guys that I have worked with over the years who struggle with this that is definitely one of the players in the room in most of those cases I have found.
Is that somewhere along the line whether it was in childhood maybe it was in other relationships that went really bad possibly a negative divorce or breakup early on in life right? Somewhere along the line they picked up the idea that me expressing myself is not safe. Yeah.
Trauma, especially early childhood trauma, plays a huge role in the development of communication patterns. For many addicts, their inability to communicate openly and honestly stems from a history of emotional or psychological trauma. They may have grown up in environments where vulnerability was punished, where expressing emotions led to rejection, ridicule, or even abuse. As a result, they learned to shut down and protect themselves by keeping their thoughts and feelings hidden.
In some cases, this behavior may have been reinforced throughout their lives. For example, if an addict experienced a painful breakup or a toxic relationship where their emotions were used against them, they may have decided that it’s safer to remain silent. Over time, this pattern of withholding information becomes second nature, and they carry it into future relationships.
The environment in which someone grows up can also have a significant impact on their communication style. If a person grew up in a household where emotions were not openly discussed, they may have never learned how to express their feelings in a healthy way. They may struggle to put their emotions into words or may feel uncomfortable when asked to talk about their inner world.
Trauma doesn’t have to be dramatic to have a lasting impact. Even small, repeated instances of emotional neglect or criticism can lead a person to develop a protective shell. This shell may have helped them survive in their past environment, but it can become a barrier to intimacy and connection in their current relationships.
Review this past PBSE podcast for more on how past "communication trauma" can prevent healthy communication in the here and now—https://www.daretoconnectnow.com/post/how-a-lifetime-of-communication-trauma-can-prevent-healthy-connection-in-the-here-and-now
The Complexity of Betrayal Trauma: Impact on the Partner
Now this next part is quite extreme. He was recently in a car accident and didn't tell me until he came home from the hospital. Yeah there's definitely a lack of communication there.
Is there any hope he will treat me like a true friend and partner? Or has compartmentalization become so ingrained in him that this is just how it is? Good question. Really good question.
As we’ve discussed, the addict’s behavior is often a form of self-protection. But for the partner, this behavior can feel like a form of betrayal. When significant events—such as a car accident—are kept secret, it reinforces the feeling that they are not truly part of their partner’s life. This exclusion can be devastating, especially in the context of betrayal trauma.
Betrayal trauma occurs when someone is deeply hurt by the actions of a person they trust. In the case of addiction, betrayal trauma often stems from the addict’s lies, deceit, and hidden behaviors. Even after the addiction is addressed, the trauma remains. The partner may continue to feel on edge, waiting for the next secret to be revealed. This hypervigilance can make it difficult to trust the addict, even when they are no longer engaging in addictive behaviors.
For partners who have experienced betrayal trauma, the addict’s ongoing silence can feel like a continuation of the betrayal. It’s not just about the secrets—it’s about the emotional disconnection that comes with them. The partner may feel like they are living with a stranger, someone who refuses to let them in. This can create a sense of hopelessness and despair, as the partner wonders if things will ever truly change.
One of the most challenging aspects of betrayal trauma is the way it impacts the partner’s sense of reality. After being lied to for so long, the partner may struggle to trust their own instincts. They may question whether they are overreacting or whether they have a right to ask for more from the relationship. This self-doubt can be paralyzing and can make it difficult for the partner to advocate for their own needs.
It’s important to acknowledge the emotional toll that betrayal trauma takes on the partner. It’s not just about the past—it’s about the ongoing emotional wounds that are reopened every time the addict withholds information or fails to communicate openly. Healing from betrayal trauma requires more than just sobriety—it requires a commitment to rebuilding trust through consistent, open, and honest communication.
Communication and the Importance of Recovery Sharing
Well so let's just dive right into this. First let's just talk about the why right? The why and where does this come from? Why can addicts be so closed off to partners right? There are lots of reasons why this can be the case. For some it definitely can be a personality or style that was either learned in childhood possibly genetics maybe contributed to it.
Just a person who's more quiet more introverted more reserved. I mean we all know people like that. Sure absolutely right? Also can be learned from environment right? And I love that Mark put that in our notes today because it's very true right? Also trauma can play a huge role.
In order for intimacy or vulnerable expression to happen we have to feel like there's a safe environment to express it. Yes. And many of the guys that I have worked with over the years who struggle with this that is definitely one of the players in the room in most of those cases I have found.
Is that somewhere along the line whether it was in childhood maybe it was in other relationships that went really bad possibly a negative divorce or breakup early on in life right? Somewhere along the line they picked up the idea that me expressing myself is not safe. Yeah.
Porn/sex Addicts in recovery often attend 12-step meetings as part of their healing process. These meetings are designed to provide a safe space for addicts to share their struggles, learn from others, and take accountability for their actions. But for many addicts, sharing in recovery meetings is one thing—sharing with their partner is another.
One of the key principles of recovery is honesty and transparency. Addicts are encouraged to be open about their progress, their challenges, and their setbacks. But when the addict fails to share this information with their partner, it can create a sense of unease. The partner may feel like they are being kept in the dark, which can lead to suspicion and mistrust.
For many partners, knowing what’s happening in the addict’s recovery is a crucial part of the healing process. It allows them to feel connected to their partner’s journey and reassures them that progress is being made. When the addict withholds information, it can make the partner question whether the recovery is genuine or whether the addict is still hiding something.
This lack of transparency can also lead to feelings of isolation for the partner. Recovery is a process that affects both individuals in the relationship, and when the partner is left out of that process, it can feel like they are carrying the burden of the relationship alone. Sharing the details of recovery—both the successes and the struggles—helps to create a sense of partnership and mutual support.
It’s important for addicts to understand that sharing their recovery journey with their partner is not just about providing information—it’s about building trust. Trust is not something that can be rebuilt overnight; it takes time, consistency, and openness. By being transparent about their recovery, the addict can show their partner that they are committed to change and that they value the relationship.
Here's a powerful PBSE podcast on HOW a porn/sex addict in recovery can rebuild trust with his betrayed partner—https://www.daretoconnectnow.com/post/after-lying-gaslighting-my-partner-won-t-believe-me-how-do-i-show-true-empathy-rebuild-trust
Breaking Old Habits: Building Communication Skills
So let's just dive right into this. First let's just talk about the why right? The why and where does this come from? Why can addicts be so closed off to partners right? There are lots of reasons why this can be the case. For some it definitely can be a personality or style that was either learned in childhood possibly genetics maybe contributed to it.
Just a person who's more quiet more introverted more reserved. I mean we all know people like that. Sure absolutely right? Also can be learned from environment right? And I love that Mark put that in our notes today because it's very true right? Also trauma can play a huge role.
In order for intimacy or vulnerable expression to happen we have to feel like there's a safe environment to express it. Yes. And many of the guys that I have worked with over the years who struggle with this that is definitely one of the players in the room in most of those cases I have found.
Is that somewhere along the line whether it was in childhood maybe it was in other relationships that went really bad possibly a negative divorce or breakup early on in life right? Somewhere along the line they picked up the idea that me expressing myself is not safe. Yeah.
Building communication skills takes time, practice, and a lot of patience—both for the addict and for the partner. For many addicts, the idea of becoming a good communicator can feel overwhelming. After all, they’ve spent years, sometimes decades, avoiding difficult conversations and hiding their true selves. But with the right tools and support, it is possible to break these old habits and create new, healthier patterns of communication.
One of the first steps in this process is self-awareness. The addict needs to become aware of their communication patterns and the impact they have on their partner. This requires honest reflection and a willingness to take responsibility for their actions. It’s not enough to simply say, “I’m not good at communication.” The addict needs to actively work on developing the skills they need to improve.
Another important aspect of building communication skills is learning how to express emotions in a healthy way. Many addicts struggle with this because they’ve spent so long suppressing their feelings. They may not even know what they’re feeling, let alone how to articulate it. This is where therapy and support groups can be incredibly helpful. These environments provide a safe space for addicts to practice expressing their emotions and receive feedback from others.
For the partner, building communication skills often involves setting boundaries and learning how to advocate for their own needs. It’s important for the partner to be clear about what they expect from the relationship and to communicate those expectations to the addict. This can be challenging, especially if the partner is used to walking on eggshells or avoiding conflict. But it’s a crucial part of the healing process.
In some cases, couples therapy can be a valuable tool for improving communication. A skilled therapist can help both partners learn how to express themselves in a way that fosters connection and understanding. Therapy also provides a neutral space where difficult conversations can take place without the fear of escalation.
It’s important to remember that building communication skills is a journey, not a destination. It’s something that both partners will need to work on continuously throughout the relationship. But with time, patience, and effort, it is possible to create a relationship where both individuals feel heard, understood, and valued.
Conclusion: Will They Ever Be True Friends and Partners?
He was recently in a car accident and didn't tell me until he came home from the hospital. Yeah there's definitely a lack of communication there. Is there any hope he will treat me like a true friend and partner? Or has compartmentalization become so ingrained in him that this is just how it is? Good question. Really good question. Yeah and as we read that I think it's because of you Steve because you have a favorite song.
And as soon as we read this today your song came into my head. It's the song called Say Something. I think the band is a great big world the band is called.
And I pulled one of the little chorus verses from that song Say Something. You can picture this partner literally singing this song to her addict partner. And the verse says Say something. I'm giving up on you.
For many couples, the question of whether they will ever become true friends and partners is a difficult one. The answer depends on a variety of factors, including the level of commitment from both individuals, the willingness to do the work, and the ability to move past old patterns of behavior.
For the addict, becoming a true friend and partner means learning how to communicate openly, honestly, and vulnerably. It means being willing to share not just the good parts of life, but also the struggles, the fears, and the challenges. It means letting go of the old patterns of compartmentalization and emotional withdrawal and embracing a new way of relating to their partner.
For the partner, becoming a true friend and partner means being willing to set boundaries, speak their truth, and hold their partner accountable. It means staying connected to their own needs and being clear about what they want from the relationship. It means being patient, but also being firm in their expectations for change.
When both partners are willing to do the work, the answer to the question is yes—there is hope. There is hope for healing, for connection, and for a relationship built on trust, vulnerability, and mutual respect.
Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program Dare to Connect
Find out more about Steve Moore at Ascension Counseling
Learn more about Mark Kastleman at Reclaim Counseling Services
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